there, i said it! "what IS the deal?". i gave up on the PC mac debate a while ago, previously i was always up for the fight. but having used both systems extensively over the last 6 months, there is just no reason to argue. i use both, i design for both, i prefer a pc. they both can do the same things now. they both have their issues. there is no such thing as 'just plug it in and it works'. case in point, my gf's brand new g4. not a single thing we plugged into that thing, except for the keyboard and mouse, laoded right up with a whole lot of fighting. (moot point but i plugged the same devices into my laptop to see if the devices were broken, they both came up instantly). both machines are in the same boat now with the exception that one is unix and one is windows and of course unix can do things windows can't and vise versa.

having said that. what is the deal. i was at a bar last night with an old friend, hadn't seen him in a year, and he begins to argue with me out of the blue about how he can't imagine why i'm on a pc and how he can do so much more with a g5 he wants to get (mind you, he is a sculpter and has no need for it). i try to tell him 'look, i wont argue with you, to each his own i've used both i prefer the pc. i just do'. he doesn't let it , and he continues to argue with me. it takes me 5 minutes to end the convo.

we slide down the table to a friend of his who allegedly is a graphic designer. jay and i talk about this zine i used to run and i mention how i didn't know enough about the web back then to get it to work on a mac. this guy out of the blue starts flipping out about how safari is the most superior browser on the planet and how nothing works right unless its on a mac. i try to tell him calmly over and over how from the start of the conversation i agreed with him on something about how safari treats code. but he just doens't get it. he doesn't even listen to me, and he goes on and on about how safari is so beyond its time regardless that he began by talking about how nazi safari is on its code. (i say if you can screw up coding on IE, and it still figures out how to display the page properly, that has to be a testiment to the browser's design. but nobody seems to get that. anyway..) it takes me 5 minutes to calm the guy down, and he begins to ignore me completeley as i talk to jay. then i mention to jay how i also didn't make the graphics right for a mac. the guy turns around sharply again and goes off again. 'what do you mean the graphics wouldn't work right on a mac?' i calmly and slowely explain to him that i didn't know enough about clean coding and making graphics for the web to make a sliced up image display its table properly on the different platform.

this is a phenominum i've only ever ecountered with apple users. if you attempt to point out a limitation on their machine they jump all over you. they refuse to listen to anything you say when you might be blatently correct. however if you mention something baout what a PC can't do, its all 'thats because microsoft sucks and its all corporate money grubbing'.

furthermore, they pick a fight with you when you arn't even contrasting the two. in this case i was talking about how i was a young programmer and didn't know enough about the web to make things look good on both machines, and they argued with me it was the equipment i was using.

i have never come across a pc person who out of the blue flies off the handle about their machine. however every single mac user i've met has tried to fight me.

a good friend of mine recently moved from a pc to a mac because of the changes panther brought baout on the apple. he still keeps an open mind about what both can do.

i am a graphic designer.. i think if i can design on a pc, take it to press and have a flawless product without any conmversion of layout, color, or type, then i just might know what i'm talking about. but they never care. professors, friends, my boss at work. they still tell me if i ever want to go anywhere i need to be on a mac. its just bull.
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Comments (Page 3)
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on Apr 19, 2004
in a new athlon 3800


AMD makes them that high now? i thought 3200 was the top - I must be behind on news.
on Apr 19, 2004
the fact that mac users have 3% market share, they make up about 20% of the computers that are in use today When people use that 3% figure, they don't realize that that is in terms of computers sold that year. Obviously people buy PCs more often than macs because macs last longer. While the avg PC life would be about 2 years, the avg mac life is probably 5 years.


You're not serious, are you Macrobaye? You do realize that what you said there is mathematically impossible? Even if we granted that your underlying estimates of average life are correct, (which I do not), the maximum possible percentage of Macs to all computers in use, given your numbers for market share, would peak at barely over 7%. It doesn't matter whether you do the calculations on a Mac, a PC, or an abacus, it still comes out the same... and nowhere near 20%.
on Apr 19, 2004

Funny Macrobaye, but untrue. Macs are in reality 3% of the computers used, not just 3% of the computers sold. Just look at any web site stats. There are more Linux users (about 5%) out there than Mac users.

But what makes me giggle though is that now with OSX, Macs users are actually PC users on an Apple machine. OS X is closer to a PC OS that to any older Mac OS.  Well, normal since OS X is actually a new flavour of the *nix systems.

Anyway, it's hardly worth a fight anymore, because more and more now Mac and PC are getting extremely similar in the way it works, in its stability, in its safety, in its speed and reliability, and in it ease (not) of use. Both Windows and Mac are getting more and more complex, and both can be - and probably are - quite a headache to start learning when you're new to it.  Heck just last week I had to use this Mac at work, and I kept getting windows turning blue and flying in and out of the corner!! At some point I almost screamed "HOW DO I TURN THIS THING OFF?!" 

Anyway, Macs are probably faster indeed than the average PC. But spend the same $6,000 on a PC than you spend on a high end Mac, and you'll get the same high end performance.  At work, all the Mac artists have a $6,000 machine, while I have a modest $1,400 PC. Of course they're faster than me. BUt give me the same money to configure a PC with the parts I want, and man, I'll be cruising just as fast, if not faster.

on Apr 19, 2004
Actually, paxx, there was an article in the Register explaining what I just said, the facts, that about 20$ of computers in use and working today are Macs. That's the truth. People buy PCs more and more because they go obsolete after like 2 years, and Intel has people brainwashed into thinkinkg GHZ = power, so poeple want to buy new machines. Then they either throw away their old machines, or give them away. So paxx, right? YOU must be kidding me.

But spend the same $6,000 on a PC than you spend on a high end Mac,


You and I both know this is a rediculous figure. You find me a $6,000 mac and I'll find you a $200 porche. The avg mac price based on performance hovers around the same for the PC. You want a s***box Dell dor $400, go ahead, but it won't be anywhere near as good as a $1000 iMac, $1500 Powerbook, or $1700 Powermac. Nice try tho paxx
on Apr 19, 2004
there was an article in the Register explaining what I just said, the facts, that about 20$ of computers in use and working today are Macs


Seriously, there was probably also an article somewhere extolling the tastiness of the moon's cheese.....it's hardly reality...
on Apr 19, 2004
#32 by


sorry konda i typo'd. meant 2800.. they're up to 3400 but its a 64 bit.
on Apr 19, 2004
I know it's true!!!! I read it on the intarweb!
on Apr 19, 2004
who cares, remember that it's a pc user who instigated this thread/arguement/conversation whatever you want to call it
on Apr 19, 2004
This whole argument reminds me of the Iran/Iraq war.

No its spelled with an N, No its spelled with a Q.

on Apr 19, 2004
macro, your point being?
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on Apr 19, 2004
Well my point was that how can you say "what's the deal with MAC users?" That's kind of irony in and of itself... because that's a complaint. You're complaining about mac users complaining. Seems kind of redundant.

And about the 20% thing. The real figure is somewhere around 11%, sorry for the mix up. I found an article from a Syracuse paper about it. it states that the installed home base of Apple computers is about 11%, not counting businesses (who rely on PCs not because they're better, just because they're cheap and some see them as the standard).
[Message Edited]
on Apr 19, 2004

Macrobaye, please find me that article, as I'd like to know their source. The Mac users I know change their computer more often than the PC users I know. The reason being that the Mac users I know all work on high end graphics, and they need more power as soon as it's available.

As for the $6,000 figure, I can fax you a bill if you want. But I admit that it's $6,000 in Canadian money, which is probably $4,000 in US money or so.

But you missed my point. My point was that if you spend the same money on each system, you'll get the same performance. Wheather you spend $1,000, $2,000 or $4,000. There is no reason to fight about this anymore, as it's all the same.

on Apr 19, 2004
i'd like to look at it less as complaining and more of a question of 'why'.. while you say its the PC's who start the fight, it looks like a lot of us here have all come across the kind of person i described, and i'm just wondering why these people have that mindset.. why they don't want to listen to me tell them what i'm comfortable with and just accept there is nothing wrong with a pc?

i think it'd be fun to visit an apple forum and start up a similar conversation on their side to see what their response is. (best 'carrie bradshaw voice' are pc users as agnostic as mac users? in my experience hell no but that IS just me. while i try to keep an open mind, i admit it will take a lot to convince me otherwise. mind you its not just people in bars or old friends that give me gripe. it is people at work (my @#!!ing boss!), the guy at kinkos, 4 professors, the guy at the OSX convention.. the only person who's opinion i value is harry, our IT guy at work, who has to deal with networking pc's all day who is a mac whore at heart. as biased as he is, i know he knows both machines fluently. while he tells me what my machine can't do (that it really can do) i know he's comming from an angle of looking at how much of a bitch it is to manage 200 computers and a bunch of satallite server systems and how simple networking is on a mac.. but has all changed with XP and even with panther. just yesterday it took me 2 minutes to have my desktop pc, my laptop, kari's g4 and her new ibook all talking and sharing their printers together. but i still suprise him by asking why my gf's computer won't talk to her printer.

now that i think about it, i don't know if i can handle going to an apple forum and asking that question. again comming from past experience, if i say 'im a windows user here is my question' i'm certain all i would get is a whole bunch of gripe about how much me, my cat, and my first born son suck. i've tried something like that before.
on Apr 19, 2004
DesignCaddy - you ask why? My theory is that it's because they are a minority, and people in a minority tend to feel they have to defend their corner. It seems to be a human instinct thing.

As for the debate, PC/Mac are both the same these days...they both crash, they both cost money, they both keep me in work

More seriously - it used to be true that Macs were far superior for graphical design works, it used to be true that Macs were much easier to use, it used to be true that they looked much better than ANY PC (now it's just better than most), and it used to be true that there was roughly the same total cost of ownership for companies for both PCs and Macs.

Now, PCs are up to the graphical intensive tasks, especially because most of the load is taken by the graphics cards and these are the same or similar on both platforms.

Now Pcs have become almost consumer level devices with the advent of XP, and Macs have become trickier (under the hood) thanks OSX being Unix in all but name.

Now some companies making PCs have concentrated on making sexy looking machines as well as performance/price...and there are all sorts of options to customise them yourself if looks are important to you.

Now, because PCs dominate the market so much, and most people develop PC skills (both users and support staff) etc, most companies find the TCO for PCs significantly lower than for Macs (we've just had external KPMG auditors looking and reporting on this for where I work and they have the business studies to back this up).

Which would I pick (having used both and many other platforms in the past)? An Acorn Archimedies any day
on Apr 19, 2004
...reminds me of the Linix/Windows debate. Neverending and never winning .. ...

We might as well argue religion next, too.

Then we can debate Canada vs. the US, then maybe we can move onto white bread vs. brown bread.

If there's time in the end, maybe we can debate the mayonaisse vs. miracle whip debate too.

Sounds like fun. Count me in.
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